Midweek Mention... Heat

Heat

Sidey: Happy New Year, gentlemen.

Pete: Happy New Year to you too.

Sidey: to our legion of listeners, I suppose, also. We made Someone's Year with the last episode of 2023.

Pete: We really?

Sidey: Yeah, Andy the Talking Hedgehog reached, he was delighted.

Pete: I haven't listened to that episode yet.

Reegs: Watch the film first, yeah.

Pete: Okay. Okay. There's a little, there's a little, the corner of your mouth is curling up as you say that.

So, but I need, is it, is it one that you don't want spoilers from the pod? You need to experience it first

Sidey: Just experience at least some of it. I don't think you'll last the course.

Pete: Okay.

Sidey: We, last time we got together, we recorded a bunch of episodes.

So this is the first time that we've been together for a little while.

Pete: I've been up

Sidey: I don't know. It's not that long, like years, but a fortnight been up too much.

Reegs: a bit of Christmas and a bit of New Year and that, yeah.

Sidey: Yeah, New Year, I mean, pfft, irrelevant.

Reegs: we had the Hoot Nanny on. Oh, did you? Yeah.

Sidey: Who was on that?

Reegs: Josh Stone. Did you know that she was back around?

Pp good. She's got a funny name. There was some other ones rod Stewart on it. He

Sidey: Anyone, was anyone good on it?

Reegs: was anybody, they had these Irish guys doing

Pete: They were

Reegs: They were quite good. It's a good commitment.

Pete: It was more

Reegs: it was more sort of shanty based

Sidey: Okay. I could be into that.

Reegs: They were pretty good.

He had an amazing like mustache where it's really thick here going up into the sideburns and then like not nothing here on the chin. Yeah. Like it's sort of, Like a mouth strap.

Pete: strap. An inverted handlebar.

Reegs: Yeah, like he was wearing a horse's bridle.

Pete: horse's bridle. Ha ha ha.

Reegs: But

Pete: Yeah. Is it like, Melchett's when he's got it in his, like, in that, like, net.

Sidey: nostalgia net, yeah.

Pete: amazing. I, I went to bed about ten, ten to ten last night.

Reegs: you? Yeah. I

Pete: Couldn't really be out. Like, the bells are just so completely, I got, I got a message from my daughter at like quarter past twelve.

Like, happy birthday. Oh, happy birthday. Happy, happy new year. And I didn't see it till the following morning. I was like, like, she's 12 and she's seeing it. She's

Sidey: It's more hardcore than you.

Pete: staying up past the bells. But no, I'm

Sidey: I, we, we stayed up, we stayed, we've, the last couple years we've, for, I dunno why, but we've been watching Jaws films. So last night was Jaws 3D

Reegs: Alright, so you've really reached the heights then.

Sidey: got Jaws even to look forward to at the end of this year.

Pete: You watch it with your daughter?

Sidey: No, no, no. She was in bed. Yeah, no, that was, that, was that

Pete: Okay. Yeah. Now, I don't have any New Year's traditions other than always get seafood. And then, and then I drink lots and lots of wine and that's why I didn't last beyond 10

o'clock, so.

Sidey: last beyond ten o'clock. Well,

Reegs: yeah.

Pete: heat. Yeah. I think it might have been the fact that you'd mentioned it, that it resonated there in, in my brain.

And then I spent a lot of last week just like burying films. The weather was cack. So I was indoors most of the time, put a load of films on and one of them was heat. And then we thought we'd, we'd chat

Sidey: about

Reegs: it. I was going to say those words as

Sidey: show.

I was going to say, those words, we're in masterpiece territory here. However, and I don't often tell you the metrics, but should we just talk about those for a minute? Because 8. 3, that's, that's decent on IMDB, that's nearly as good as the Burping. Oh, cart and

Reegs: 83

Sidey: Yeah 83 on Rotten Tomatoes, only 76.

So

25 percent of critics didn't give this a favourable review on metacricket,

Reegs: Metacricket.

Sidey: I find that staggering. Can

you enjoyed

Pete: age to have enjoyed this when it came out, because I mean, so it's 95, so we'd have been in the 17, 18 year old bracket, that kind of thing.

Sidey: Well I think it is a very blokey, macho

Pete: Yeah, but we'd have, like, as sort of like young lads, watching it, it was brilliant then,

as you watch it more. I mean, I've only ever seen it once since it, since it came out.

Well, twice now, because I watched it again for this. But, I can imagine that you watch it now, watching it again through like older eyes and everything like that, it still absolutely stands up. And is, is brilliant, but if you watch it, say you're, you're younger and you watch it now, because there's been quite a lot of films that are of a similar sort of ilk, but this is, I wouldn't say this is the first of its kind, but it was, it was a, you know, it was a massive hit.

I know,

Sidey: I suppose.

Pete: And also because, you know, like the Pacino De Niro thing, I know they've been in a couple of things before, but this is where they like, you know, obviously they're, they're literally going head to head in

Reegs: this. I

Sidey: It's, I think it's very macho. The women get a rough trot in this. It's either like the rejected wife or the rejected girlfriend.

Reegs: Yeah, well because

Sidey: the suicidal stepdaughter and or prostitutes that are getting killed. Yeah.

Reegs: Yeah, and his movies are, you know, always about macho men and their world and that sort of thing. So you know, you know that going in. Yeah.

Pete: But yeah, I'm just trying to work out why people might not have given it fo people who've seen it for the first time, maybe in 2020 and they're, it like early twenties or something like that.

And it doesn't have any like, hold any kind of like nostalgic

Sidey: I don't know, but I'm, I'm all in on it.

I think it's great. Um it it starts off with heist number one. It's where we get to meet the crew, Neil McCauley, that's De Niro and his mob. And right out of the gate, you're looking at the cast going, holy Yeah. I mean, you know, going into it but it's his crew is it's De Niro running the show but then you've got

Reegs: Val Kilmer's

Sidey: Val Kilmer in great shape, Tom Sizemore here.

They've got oh god.

Pete: Well you don't see Voit in the highs, but he's part of

Sidey: Danny, Danny Trejo is the

Pete: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sidey: that getaway driver? And this one, they're all kind of dotted around. We see Val Kilmer go and buy some explosives cash with a fake ID. And then De Niro going through a hospital. He nicks an ambulance. And then

Reegs: You get all the little details of the heist, but you're still left, a little bit is left to your imagination until it all comes together, right?

Sidey: Yeah. Semore is just sitting in a lorry in a big fucking, one of those big, like 18 wheelers.

Pete: goes and picks up the, the new guy? Cause he's

Sidey: I think Sizemore has

Pete: is, yeah, Sizemore picks him up

Sidey: Wayne grow. He's based on a real dude, right? He's

Pete: when he, when he gets in the cab, like, straight away, even, like, he's, they explain, like, so this is a new

Reegs: Oh, is that Thingy Trimble, or whatever his name is, the, the inspiration for that?

Sidey: No, it was another guy who's actually called Wayne Gray, the real, the real

Pete: Oh, right, okay. But yeah, so he gets in the cab of, like, Sizemore's van, or whatever, and starts to, like, just, like, you can tell he's got a lot of nervous energy. And and Sizemore pretty much just says straight away, Look mate, shut up. Like, we're just gonna go and do this. You know the plan. Don't deviate from it, etc, etc. This Wayne Grove character looks like a bit of a fucking, like, hillbilly, like,

Sidey: He's, he's, they're, like, professional. Yeah. They're a well drilled crew.

This guy's a bit more of a loose can, a bit more of an unknown quantity.

Pete: down to his appearance, because all the others always look like, I mean, you know, De Niro's always looking immaculately dressed all the way through this film.

Sidey: a reason for that. in the script. He wears a gray suit or is tailored, you know, very nicely.

It's supposed to be to help him blend into crowds when he's

Pete: be

Sidey: away from somewhere. It just looks fairly nondescript although still sharp.

Pete: when he's walking. It just looks fairly nondescript, although still

Sidey: of a

Pete: and this heist, what they do,

Sidey: Yeah and this heist, what they do. De Niro puts the Blues and twos on on the amulets to block the roads, which stops the security van. And then they smash into it with the lorry that they've nicked the big fucking lorry, like juggernaut thing, flips it over.

And then with the explosives, they blow the door open and the guards in the van are, they're fucking, like, they're completely out of it. They're, then they've got blood coming outta their ears from the, the noise of the explosives.

So

they're not gonna do anything. They're, they're completely dazed. They're completely fucked.

And they're, they're not taking everything in the van. They're specifically for one package. Which they take, it's about 1. 6 millions worth of Barabons. Yeah.

But,

Mr. Loose Cannon he's itching to pull the trigger. He's just want, he's bloodlust I think. And then we, what we find later in the film is that he's actually a serial

Reegs: Yeah, that's Kevin Gage's character, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Sidey: He one of the policemen just stumbles forward and he shoots him. And so they no point leaving live witnesses. So they get the nods and they just execute and one of them on the floor poor bastard just gets bang bang in the face like they're gone. And then it cuts to we kind of get interspersed then we meet.

Al Pacino and it seems like he's having a good time with his wife. They're having sex and they're getting on fine it seems but that turns out to not really be the case he gets the call he's got to go out and they turn up at the scene and he's fucking good Like, you know, he knows, you know good escape routes.

Why leave a live witness? Just kill him like he knows exactly he works these crews. He's fucking high up

Reegs: yeah. He reverse engineers everything from

Sidey: And the

Pete: And,

think that's where it's, it, it makes

Sidey: he's supposed to, the original cut he had a coke habit, which is why he's, cause he's fucking really

Pete: Yeah, he is pretty wired. There's a thin line between him and the bad guys really. But,

Reegs: well that's the whole point

Pete: yeah, exactly. And, and I think, but I think this kind of like, as you say, like the reverse engineering and everything, he, he thinks incredibly strategically about how everything was put together and what, where they arrived from and, you know, what, what the,

what the MO was.

Sidey: Now we get Jon Voight into it and he's the kind of ringleader sort of, He's got his fingers in lots of different underworld sort of contacts and the, the money that they've stolen, the bearer bonds that they've stolen, they know that this guy, Roger Vincennes, who's played by the guy, forget his name, but you see him in lots of different films.

Pete: Roger Van Zant. Yeah. And he is played by William

Reegs: Oh, William

Sidey: William Fishner, yeah, he's, he's a banker in, he's a dodgy

Reegs: He's the informant, isn't he?

Sidey: well, he's a dodgy mob banker in Dark Knight. I wondered if this could be the same world.

Reegs: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Pete: yeah, He is

Sidey: Not because he dies, obviously. So they know that he will get, he will collect 100 percent from the insurers, but they, they posit this idea that if they could sell the bonds back to him at a discount, then he can still sell, use them, and so he makes 40 percent plus the insurance money.

So he's quids in, they're quids in, he doesn't like that idea, he's like, no, it's not okay to fucking steal from me, I can't have word out on the street that you can just fucking rob from me. Because he's a money launderer,

Pete: yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sidey: So that, that's really what kicks the plot.

Pete: Yeah.

Sidey: so we've got a successful heist,

a bit of extra money coming their way, probably.

And now Jon Voight says, and I've got such and such a bloke. Who's got his eye on another score, you know, a fucking lifetime score, a bank robbery. He's got all the schematic, blah, blah, blah. Go meet him and see what you think. And so this is what's

Pete: Well it, it was a successful heist but it was a, it was a, a messier than,

Sidey: no one was supposed to die.

Yeah. Yeah.

Pete: Yeah. Because of this, this loose cannon and only because it's relevant. Later on, there's a, there's a scene not long after the actual heist itself where they kind of like meet up in a cafe or a diner or something

Sidey: like that. Oh,

Pete: Ah, okay, yeah, yeah, yep.

Sidey: yeah. It's like come down to the fights meet my cousin, he's got, he'll have some information for you, and he goes down and really this guy just wants Pacino to shut down another crew that's like, you know, getting on his turf, and it's like the most pathetic intel until he says this guy Slick's the real deal, and he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, Slick, tell me about Slick Pacino, this is the era of Pacino where he just shouts basically every line, watch the trip when Brydon and Coogan

Pete: Yeah, yeah,

Sidey: This is the film I think of when they do that, it's fucking brilliant. And so

Reegs: it is massively over the top, the performance.

Sidey: Yeah

Pete: But without at any point, it doesn't ever take you out of the film, you don't ever think Oh, this guy's hamming it

Sidey: on. I think it would've had

they should have kept the cocaine thing in.

'cause I think it would've made more sense for Pacino's performance. I

Pete: it's probably because then we look at look at like, you know His home life is like really dysfunctional. He's got this girlfriend who's got

a

Sidey: his wife. It's his third

Pete: Okay, so that's sorry.

They are they are married then but he lives in her house she's got a, a, a, yeah, she is hot, but it's a very, very severe fringe that she's got. Her daughter is there, the, the father of the daughter is, you never see him, but it's kind of, it alludes to the fact that he's a bit of a dickhead, but, you know, he's, he's kind of like sniffing around a bit.

But, like you say, the first, like, scene that you see them in, it's like, it's, it's them being kind of, like, very, like, close and passionate and everything, but all is not, all is not necessarily well, so he's a, he's a man, you know, he's got a seriously, like, fucking horrible job,

Sidey: Well, he is at the top homicide guy working exactly. Working a serious

Pete: of pressure on him,

Sidey: cruise.

Pete: so I think he plays it As it would be, you've got to be like a seriously intense, like, you know, confident overbearing individual to, because you've, you've got to go and shake up like informants and, and, you know, that's

Reegs: do your job.

Well Pacino, well you can't be emotionally open and vulnerable even with your wife, it's basically, that's the point of, that's the point, the toll that

Sidey: She says, I didn't know I'd have to share you, you know, with all these, that's the deal, baby. And then when they have a proper fight, he goes, okay, well, I'll share with you.

I've, you know, seen this. Prostitute with an eight ball, hemorrhage and fucking blah blah. And, and like, that's my life, you know? And that's who I am. I can't not do that. I have to do that. It's who I am.

Reegs: I can't not do that. I have to do that. That's who I am.

It's

Sidey: Well, the whole,

Pete: halfway through the

Sidey: whole marketing of the film

Reegs: was about that scene,

Sidey: two, they obviously they're in Godfather part two, but they didn't obviously share any screen time because they're different time periods in that film. But this was the first time they went head to head, toe to toe. And so you're waiting for

Reegs: for that. But they have this grudging admiration for each other, because they understand the professionalism that it

Sidey: Well, they, they're, they're fine lines. So what, so, so all this stuff that the intel that they've got means, means that they can get up on the wire, they can get the, all the surveillance done and blah, blah, blah, which culminates with the first bit of they're going to take down this.

This Bullion place that they've done a couple of times already, and they've got, I love this scene. Do you want to I

Pete: I was just going to say there's one bit of information that is kind of relevant that was from that, you know, when they do the first heist, they have like a meet up in the diner and it's where they're going to, you know, they're, they're chucking bits of cash out to each other

Sidey: They're going to kill Wayne

Pete: but they want to kill Wayne Grove because of what he did, because he was the one that put them in the extra shit, the unnecessary stuff by executing one of the guards.

And then they go out into the car park outside the diner. They're just about to, De Niro is just about to execute him. And then I think there's like a kerfuffle somewhere else where someone

Sidey: police, police cops

Pete: Right, okay, and it distracts him for a second and then you turn right like he turns around Wayne grows gone They run around the car park for a bit and everything So that's that's kind of relevant because as you get towards the end of the plot He pops up again.

And so that was that was why I wanted to mention that but yeah, as you say, it's it's moved on now they're going for

Sidey: the

I mean, we can't go into every scene because it's like a long old movie. It's big. But this, this one, like, there's a few just real, like, I would say like seminal really

Reegs: well, this has got at least two

Sidey: So this bit

Reegs: timers

Sidey: this bit I love because they're in the back of a. Like what's called a shipping container or something like that and they're they've got infrared cameras looking and they're watching and they've got a SWAT team ready to go and they're waiting for them to actually break in and nick the gold.

They're after gold bullion at this one and Val Kilmer's going to Chris. He's drilling through the vault. So you think that's pretty like full on. That's a pretty serious crime, but not they have to take the stuff And so they're just watching they're staring and De Niro's looking out and you just have Pacino Looking at and it's a negative so it's like they're the same person just in negative, you know, so good I mean, I guess it's quite simplistic or heavy handed.

You might say I think it's great. It's just like looking at himself in reverse. Yeah

Pete: I was necessarily heavy handed. It was,

Sidey: I love it. I think it's absolutely brilliant. And so

Reegs: there's an idiot

Sidey: idiot guy who then leans back on the shipping container and his gun taps and makes a noise and De Niro looks and he's like, we walk, you know, and Like, it was like, I'm nearly dead, and he's like, no, no, if I could walk, I'd just leave everything and go.

Reegs: not over the fucking water,

Sidey: repeats He says it later, he said, he said it

Reegs: go.

Yeah, I've got the heat

Sidey: When you feel the heat around the corner, you know, you've got to be able to go. And so that's, you're waiting for

Reegs: to go. And so that's, you're waiting for that moment.

Sidey: So there's that moment. And then, then they know that, that he's like, where's this fucking heat come from? You know, where, why are they onto us? How'd they get onto us? And so they go down to the docks where all these fucking, you know. It's just this big plate and they're just pointing at things and talking about roads.

I love this and and knowing that they're being watched. And then you've got Pacino and his like crew, all the cops that are down there. And they're like, what the fuck are they doing down here? And they're looking around and then Pacino twigs. He's like, do you know what they're looking at? They're fucking looking at us.

But then when I'm watching it this time, I was thinking, so if he knows, I guess it could be on video camera, but I was thinking if he knows that. They're looking at him now, just fucking like, block off all the exits to the, the thing, yeah, that area, and if they're there,

Reegs: got them

Sidey: you've got them.

Pete: But I think they need to catch them in because all, all they've got up to that point is circumstantial stuff. There's not a lot, not a huge amount of hardware, obviously. There's no like

Sidey: I think he said,

Pete: and DNA and things like that, so

Sidey: so Probably would have got six months for the,

Pete: Exactly. Yeah. They're like, so these guys, they know these guys are big time.

They don't want to bring them in or like on the basis of the, the, not flimsy, but you know, like the, the stuff that they've

Reegs: they

Pete: they want to catch them in the act. And they think that they're doing it covertly enough to, for the, for the gang not to know, but this is them saying back to them. It's like, look, we know you're watching us and we're smarter than you guys.

Reegs: I mean, they do suspect them of multiple homicides, so,

Pete: Well, they do because three at three guards are dead and, and, and

Reegs: they they've got something that they want

to

Pete: I think that the, the point there is, is that they want to.

Reegs: And I think one of the things, right, that you feel throughout the movies, whichever you're watching the side of the cops and you want them to win and you're watching the side of the bad guys and you kind of

Sidey: them to win

Reegs: well.

And so, you know, at the whole time that this is coming crashing together.

Pete: crashing

Sidey: It just, there's a lot of Pacino in the helicopter and he sees Neil McCauley, isn't it? Is, is,

Pete: Yeah, yeah,

Sidey: De Niro's character and he just ends up like following him down and just pulls him over and says, want to go, want to go get a coffee? And you're like, here we go.

And so for this, they, they decided they would have no rehearsals, no no practice in nothing.

They just did that, that scene, you know, first time bang, did

Pete: yeah. Yeah.

Sidey: because they wanted it to be like a fresh kind of looking

Reegs: was it the first take

Sidey: I don't know if they used the first take. I'd like to think that they did. That would be pretty cool. But yeah, it's great. And I just, he just says, look, I'm going to fucking do it.

Basically. It's like, if I will, you know, we've, we sit here and have coffee, I will fucking take you down.

Pete: take you down.

Sidey: so they both put the cards on the table as if they didn't know anyway.

Pete: For, anyone that's listening that has never seen this film and hasn't seen this scene, what it, what it effectively does is it It, it kind of like demonstrates or portrays this like mutual admiration that they have for each other in terms of how good they are at their jobs and how seriously they take it, how professional they're both like pet like significant like pedants in terms of everything that, that happens.

And, you know, Macaulay, the second anything goes slightly wrong or deviates from the plan, he's like, no, we're checking out and we'll do this another time. Pacino is obviously he's like a total taskmaster with all of his rest of his group, who I think he feels like he's surrounded by a lot of incompetence, which is a little bit like De Niro's character as well.

They're just like the absolute figureheads of their respective parties. So they just they display a lot of admiration for each other. They qualify that. But both of them say, look at any, you know, when it comes to it, I'll take you down. And it's like, okay, well if it gets that, I will kill you.

Sidey: down, And

Pete: as I like you, I'll shoot you.

Sidey: well, if it gets that, I will kill you. And, as much as I like you, I will shoot you. Yeah,

Reegs: Yeah, but even, even when you take that, you know, that hype about these two acting heavyweights coming together, it's still just a really good scene that really

Sidey: time that they do come together, it's for a chat. It's not like a big action

Pete: no,

Sidey: or something. It's two people acting, you know, it's just really good.

Pete: it, and it doesn't, it's not, it's not like, either of them are trying to like, you know, out act each other or anything. It just seems so fucking believable. Seems so believable. Like, you feel like you're there, watching these two characters, forget that, forget that they're actors, like, you know, going at

it.

Sidey: And so after that conversation then we, the plot does kind of escalate because we've got the heist. They've been given schematics of the bank. They've got chips to put into the surveillance equipment to turn that off 20 minutes before they go into the bank.

But because of this Roger van sent scenario and Wayne Grove.

he's he's informing

Pete: done a Zandt, yeah.

Sidey: dirty. so

people are wise to that. This is gonna go. This is gonna happen and so when they go into the bank. The police are there just as they're walking out there. They're just just a fraction too late and chris sees them as he's getting he's Smiling it's just about to get into the getaway car And he just clocks the guy that one of the policemen and it fucking kicks off where the all time best fucking like shootout scenes

Reegs: It is. It really

Pete: in a, in a really kind of like public place with lots of people around

Sidey: been another one.

Reegs: makes it feel so

Pete: tense. Yeah. Yeah.

Reegs: it, and it doesn't downplay, like, these are just weapons of, of destruction it's not like pew pew pew pew like it is in like action films this is like you know people are going to get sliced in half by things if by just straying in front of the wrong bullet or and the sound i remember the sound is just

Sidey: Right, so we,

Reegs: the squibs

Sidey: they tried to do the handoff for the Barabons thing, we didn't mention it because it's You know, there's too much to talk about. They, Chris shoots from one of these, a big fucking gun. And my mum said, it's too loud. I'm like, it's not. It's just the way they've done the mix in the, because all the conversations they've been having have been the right volume.

This is just because guns are fucking

Reegs: loud. What they

Sidey: would normally do, I think, is dub the sound in afterwards. Whereas this, they, must have been blanks or whatever they use.

They put loads and loads of mics around the streets and the set to capture the sound. So that's, I don't know, I don't think it's been done better before or since this.

This is like standout fucking

Pete: It's like super intense. All the, all the kind of like the, the high scenes, the shootouts and everything are like, are super intense. There's, there's one horrible bit where Sizemore bravely picks up a, a little girl to use as a human shield, which is, which is nice.

Sidey: which is nice, but I

Pete: No, I was gonna, I was gonna say, I'm, I'm, even though I've seen the film before, I'd forgotten that bit and I'm like, don't take the shot. Like, don't do that. Like if I'm the parent of that girl, I'm like.

Yeah, you know, there must be a better way. But anyway, he like, pops one into Sizemore's chest and takes him down.

And then picks up the girl and, and all is well.

Reegs: But

then it's quiet after the shootout, isn't it?

Sidey: Well, you still got a good hour of movie after the I thought, I Because I hadn't seen it for a little while, I thought this was further on than it was. You

Pete: feels like the climax, and it should be, but it actually isn't.

Sidey: But, they use that in, with, in the marines, as how to, like, retreat from a gun, from that kind of scenario. They show them, like, this is how you would do this the bit where Val Kilmer's character Chris runs out of bullets and he rapidly changes his magazine, that's shown to Marine recruits as an example of how to perform that action properly. Which is pretty fucking rad. Yeah. So after that you've got the fallout of Chris has been shot and wounded.

And he's taken to a, like a Dr. Nick Riviera style. That's Jeremy Piven, actually. Yeah,

Reegs: That's Jeremy Piven, actually.

Sidey: And so he's got a bit of tissue damage and a broken collarbone, I think. But he's still in a bad way. I mean, he's fucking shot. So he's got, I think, six hours to rest and recover.

Because they've got some kind of flight to get out of there.

Pete: Yeah, but they're, they're

Sidey: then it's like, well, is De Niro going to be able to walk away from the heat? He's now he's got a girlfriend. You've got this loose and with Wayne Grow, is he going to be able to let that guy fucking get away with it? Because he knows they're like, well, how did the how the police know we were there?

And De Niro's I will who the crew wasn't there and Danny Trejo's character had bailed.

And it turns out he'd been tortured almost to death by Wayne Grow. AnD that's how they knew about the heist and that's how it all fucking got played out and that's how the police got there so quick. So it's like is De Niro going to be able to just fucking let

that

Reegs: fucking got pointed out, and that's how the police got there so quick. So it's like, is De Niro gonna be able to just fucking let that guy

go?

Sidey: Yeah, he's done all that shit. He also, there's this subplot of him as a serial killer of

Pete: yeah,

Sidey: So he's not a nice guy. And so yeah, he just swerves across the freeway. John Voight phones him and says, this is where he is. It's up. I think you should leave him by yourself. I'm just telling you that's where he

Reegs: is. Also, have we talked about when he met Ashley Judd in the bookstore and their whole relationship?

Because she's going to, it's kind of again like Thief, she's going

Pete: we, we haven't, we haven't talked about like the, the stepdaughter. We haven't talked about Ashley Judd, like,

Reegs: Well, because she's dropped her whole life to go along with Macaulay, right? And he's binned her off in this moment to go after Wayne Grow as well, is that not right?

So

Pete: so you're, when you talking about Ashley Judd? That's Val Kilmer's girlfriend.

Reegs: Oh, is it? Oh,

Pete: It's so, hi. His girlfriend is Ededie. Who? He's just met Edie. She's from the bookstore, but he meets her in a

Sidey: He's rude to her at a bar,

Pete: Yeah. He's, and then she, she kind of like, like re retorts, like retaliates, but in a, in a, like a really placid way.

Sidey: Bit that didn't work for me is when she sees him on the news and knows it's him that's done it and she's okay with it.

He talks around with it like a little, oh, but I really love you. And you're like, nah, I don't think she, because she was so sheepish and so,

Pete: Yeah. She's like,

Sidey: not going to

Pete: a librarian basically, and now she's going out with like a, a real fucking badass. But I think what, what you're meant to believe, well, what he has to convince her is that, okay, yeah. This is what I do for a living. Absolutely everything else I said about how I feel about you, and, and, you know, and there's never really been, there's not been anyone really for years, and everything like that, all of that is true, I've basically fallen for you, and, and if, and this is me, I'm getting out, this is, I've got a load of money now, and we can all go away and start a new life somewhere else, and she ultimately falls for it.

Reegs: Well, that's again the same as in FIFA as well, isn't it? So many of the,

Sidey: So I haven't

Reegs: that are the same.

Sidey: so,

Pete: but we do, we do have actually judge who is you know, is Val Kilmer's other half. Yeah, she has smokes. They've got a kid together. She keeps again, like Kilmer keeps promising her loads of stuff. She, and then letting her down. That's quite a, you know, it's a very volatile relationship, but but the, but the police pick her up.

They, they go and well they, so I didn't really, sorry, I didn't understand this bit, so it's like, what's that guy, Hank,

Sidey: Hank

Pete: yeah, so he's, he's like a, a, a, like a boy, another boyfriend, like a, she's fucking him,

Sidey: Yeah.

Pete: Is he working

for the police, or do they

Sidey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they go in. It's when De Niro screams at him that she's got a great ass and you've got your head all the way. He improvised that line. He improvised that and everyone was like, whoa. Yeah, so he's been smuggling cigarettes across the border. And so they get him to instead of doing jail time for that, because he's obviously a complete coward, really.

He will then go to work for them. So then she's got They've got her in the safe house and they're using her as bait to get Chris and he does turn up he's had his hair cut so he looks slightly different and she just gives him a hand signal of like no and he just he just pretends he's lost and gets back in the car and leaves and Neil

just pulls

over and says to E.

1. I'll be back in a minute and he runs off and

terminates. What's his face is in

Pete: he's in police

Sidey: police custody in a in a thing. He just executes him. Two in the chest and one in the face.

Pete: one in the face. He is,

Sidey: He's in protective custody. He's in a

Pete: the

Sidey: suite and there's two, there's two police in another room watching his door on

Pete: his door.

But

Sidey: But when he comes downstairs, he sees Pacino down the way, and then he looks at Pacino, looks at Ed, looks back, looks at her, and you're thinking, you fucking asshole. And he just fucking runs off and leaves there and you're like, oh, he the heat, he felt the heat and he had to. He had to go and they, they have this, then this standoff the shootout moment in the the airport.

It's

Pete: airfield, isn't it?

It's like behind like luggage, old, like discarded luggage containers and other buildings out right in the middle of the airfield and so on. But it's like, it's brilliantly done this scene because of, you know, you've got planes coming in and, and taking off. So it's only lit partially at times.

Sidey: It's the lighting that does it.

Pete: Yeah. It's the, you know, it's the light, but the fucking how tense it is.

I'm like, Oh, please, please. Someone like you're desperate for them to sort of one come out and reveal themselves

Sidey: Well, at one point he's shooting at him Al Pacino's shooting Vincent Hanna. He's shooting with a shotgun.

And when he's out of rounds, he just chucks it on the floor. And I, when they finish, I'm like, did anyone go back and get

Reegs: Yeah. That

Pete: that? It's just like a discarded shotgun in there.

Sidey: but yeah. 747 comes over and the lights just pivot and he just sees a shadow and turns around and it is like a western, you know, bang, who can shoot first and Vincent Hanna gets him and he fucking empties the whole clip into him.

And then. I think it's silent, he doesn't say anything, does he? And he just, like, gives him, holds his hand as he dies. Like, still kind of respects him, even though he's a fucking brutal murderer.

Pete: I think it because he understood he understands him to like such an extent that I think they obviously again admit this mirror this like mirror image of each other. But obviously one is one side of the line and the ones the other it's I'm I'm struggling to think of another film where you've got that kind of final shootout that that scene where you're rooting for both guys.

And they literally. Either or, either one or the other of them could have like, bought it, and you'd, you'd have, would have been kind of glad for the one that won and not for the one that didn't, and I can't think of any other scenario

Sidey: It's top tier writing of a hero and a villain. Yeah. Because they're so close.

Pete: mean obviously the right guy wins in the end because he's the right side of the law, but still. It could have played out in a different way, and I don't think it would have necessarily, like, been a horrible ending, or

you

know, you want both of them to survive, and Daenerys to get away, or whatever, like, it's just, it is

Sidey: Like,

Reegs: It's only her second movie, she did Leon, and she did this.

Pete: so pretty intense

Reegs: day, couple of too good movies to

Sidey: Yeah, there's her, there's her relationship with like, being rejected by her father and she ends up like, trying to kill herself and then there's the, the new getaway driver that replaces Danny Trejo and his whole probation thing and how that system's completely fucked and you know, can never work.

There's all that other stuff going on. It's a long movie but absolutely

Pete: it absolutely like rattles like it is a juggernaut of a film in it and it feels like that they're not the pace of it even in the You know It's just like the dialogue scenes and the slower scene and everything like that You don't feel at no point.

Are you like looking away or or checking your watch? It's it's just it's Consistent rhythm all the way through.

Reegs: And

in the score. Yeah.

Pete: Yeah

Sidey: DJ Shadow uses it all the time in his live sets. Yeah, it's brilliant.

Reegs: It's a Tangerine Dream one as well, is

Sidey: I was going to say, it sounds like Tangerine Dream. I don't know if it definitely is, but it could well be. It's that, that sort of hallmark sound. Yeah, it's fucking brilliant.

Pete: Yeah, I

Reegs: I mean, I know it's a bit like, people would go on about the same set of movies and film bros and all that stuff, but this really is right up there with the best crime Genre, films, and one of the best films of all time

Sidey: all time.

Reegs: Yeah, it's a book though isn't it? It's got a book.

Sidey: Which will become a movie, I'm sure. It's a prequel and a sequel. So, obviously, it's going to be Pacino's story, not Neil McCulloch's because

Reegs: I guess, yeah.

Pete: Well, he might be in the prequel bit, you know, with the de aging thing, because that seems, he does a lot

Sidey: Or the de killing for the sequel.

Pete: No, I mean, but if you said it's a prequel and a sequel, they might, yeah, yeah. So his character might, at least, might be in

Sidey: It's got to be Hanna. It's got to be Hanna's story,

Pete: yeah, yeah.

Sidey: So that'll be interesting to

Pete: I'm just, I'm just reading here that there's, that, you know, like this, sorry, at the back end of last year, there was, there was more stuff that, that came out about the sequel, which is potentially going to be a film, but.

Reegs: But

yeah, sort of made this movie quite a few times with Thief, very similar themes, not quite so much the duality of the, of the people,

Sidey: He did this exact movie before with L. A.

Reegs: before, LA Takedown. LA Takedown. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So.

Sidey: I don't think Pacino

Pete: Pacino? Pacino, yeah.

that's what you

Reegs: you should call it.

Sidey: I don't think Pacino or De Niro have been as good since, to be honest.

That's true, I forgot about Rocky

Reegs: forgot about that. Well, it's

Pete: Well, it's, it's tough. It's tough to top this, I think. I think they've been as good like independently of each other. They've been as good. Not necessarily better. 'cause how do you get better than, than those performances in, in of those characters.

But yeah, there's, there's tons of stuff that I think will still have been after this film, but I guess not a whole heap. 'cause this is mid nineties,

Sidey: but it's great Strong, strongest possible

Pete: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. An an 11 outta 10 film.